<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #1500</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
Date:	12/15/99 2:35:27 PM Pacific Standard Time<BR>
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Traveller-digest    Wednesday, December 15 1999    Volume 1999 : Number 1500<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Exploding suppressors...<BR>
RE: Superpowers & Photosynthesis<BR>
Re: technology advances<BR>
Re: Exploding suppressors...<BR>
RE: Cutting the Carotid<BR>
RE: chicks with guns, and 3I porno<BR>
Re: US Constitution [OT]<BR>
RE: Velocity/Vector<BR>
back on topic?  was: (Way OT and possible Flamebait)<BR>
Re: Wearable Lawyers (was Re: Deserts)<BR>
RE: US Constitution [OT]<BR>
Re: Full auto Pilgramage Pics...and DITZIE?!?!<BR>
TELEKINESIS GAMES ON BARON'S YACHT! holovid at 2300<BR>
Re: Exploding suppressors...<BR>
Re: technology advances<BR>
bringing violence thread back on traveller point<BR>
Vs: Full auto Pilgramage Pics...and DITZIE?!?!<BR>
Re: technology advances<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 11:22:53 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Mark Cook <markc@peak.org><BR>
Subject: Exploding suppressors...<BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com> writes:<BR>
> <BR>
> At 10:17 AM 12/15/1999 -0600, you wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> >Also, remember, in the US a suppressor is regulated just like a<BR>
> >fully-automatic firearm or destructive device ($200 tax, 6 month background<BR>
> >check, local LEO permission, not valid in all states).  Yep, a metal pipe<BR>
> >with washers in it - all by itself - is deemed by law a weapon as dangerous<BR>
> >as a machine gun or a grenade.<BR>
> <BR>
> Considering the one home-made suppressor that blew up three feet from me,<BR>
> I'll believe it.<BR>
<BR>
Actually, Doug, it *was* commercially manufactured.  However, the bonehead<BR>
dumped an entire magazine of .223 all at once when he toasted the thing.<BR>
The fireball was almost inevitable.  They're just not designed to take<BR>
that kind of thermal spike. :^/  I have to give the guy credit for<BR>
maintaining good range discipline.  After the explosion, he slowly lowered<BR>
the rifle to waist level, keeping the muzzle down range, and waited for<BR>
close to a minute before beginning to examine the failure.<BR>
<BR>
        - Mark C.<BR>
          Instructor, Willamette Small Arms Academy<BR>
          EOD, U.S.M.C. 1st MarDiv (Camp Pendleton), Class of '75<BR>
          Full-Auto Director, Albany Rifle & Pistol Club, Albany, OR<BR>
          NRA (Life), SAF (Life), CCRKBA (Life)<BR>
          Front Sight First Family member #1<BR>
<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
 mark f. cook   *   shoestring graphics & printing   *  markc@ssgfx.com<BR>
 7160 n.w. somerset dr. * corvallis, or, 97330  *  http://www.ssgfx.com<BR>
 Phone: 541-745-5709                                  Fax: 541-745-5818      <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
   "Remember that a government big enough to give you everything<BR>
    you want is also big enough to take away everything you have."<BR>
    --Col. David Crockett; member of the Tennessee legislature<BR>
    (1821-1822/1823-1824); member U.S. House of Representatives<BR>
    (1827-1831/1833-1835); and Texas Hero of the Alamo (1836) <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 10:09:24 -0000<BR>
From: "Mark Preston" <mark@mpreston.demon.co.uk><BR>
Subject: RE: Superpowers & Photosynthesis<BR>
<BR>
Photosynthesis is a process - and processes involve lots of parts.<BR>
Part one is the chlorophyll, which is activated by light to 'catch'<BR>
electrons (simplified, I know). The electrons are then used by enzymes<BR>
to convert carbon dioxide and water into sugars. It is possible to use<BR>
any source of electrons to run the enzymes - and that is done in<BR>
bioreactors. As yet, chlorophyll is the most efficient converter of<BR>
sunlight to reductive power (spare electrons) we know of.<BR>
<BR>
- -----Original Message-----<BR>
From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
[mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Leonard<BR>
Erickson<BR>
Sent: 15 December 1999 06:56<BR>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Superpowers & Photosynthesis<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Leonard Erickson writes:<BR>
>>>Chlorophyll is the most important photosynthetic pigment<BR>
>>>found here on Terra, but there are other pigments involved<BR>
>>>in many species.  The various colours that leaves take on<BR>
>>>in the fall, in temperate climes, are caused by these<BR>
>>>pigments.<BR>
>>Those pigments are always there, but they *don't* take part in<BR>
>>photosynthesis.<BR>
><BR>
>         From Life, the science of biology (Purves et al, 1992):<BR>
>         "Here we discuss pigments that play roles in<BR>
>         photosynthesis... Of these, the most important are the<BR>
>         chlorophylls." "...all photosynthetic organisms possess<BR>
>         accessory pigments that absorb photons intermediate in<BR>
>         energy between the red and blue and then transfer a<BR>
>         portion of the energy to chlorophyll..."  Interestingly<BR>
>         enough, while all known Terran photosynthetic organisms<BR>
>         have accessory pigments (such as carotenoids and<BR>
>         phycobilins), not all of them have chlorophyll.<BR>
>         Photosynthetic halobacteria use a derivative of retinol,<BR>
>         called bacteriorhodopsin, rather than chlorophyll.<BR>
<BR>
Ok, that tells me something I didn't know. *But*, it also says that<BR>
they *transfer* the energy to Chlorophyll. My guess would be that they<BR>
act like the phosphors in fluorescent tubes and absorb certain<BR>
wavelengths and re-emit them at others more suitable.<BR>
<BR>
So they *aid* photosynthesis, but don't do it. The bacteriorhodopsin<BR>
is<BR>
a different matter.<BR>
<BR>
>>>I would expect to see photosynthetic structures<BR>
>>>of different colours, depending on the wavelengths of light<BR>
>>>that arrive.<BR>
>>Wavelength isn't as important as you'd think. Remember,<BR>
>>chlorophyll is green because it *reflects* green light. And<BR>
>>that's practically at the peak of Sol's emmission spectrm (ie<BR>
>>the strongest single wavelngth in the mix).<BR>
><BR>
>         Peak wavelength of absorption for chlorophyll a is about<BR>
>         430 nm (blue-violet) with a lesser peak at 670 nm (red),<BR>
>         for chlorophyll b the peaks are at 455 nm (blue-green)<BR>
>         and 640 nm (red-orange) respectively.  The overall<BR>
>         perception of light that is not absorbed (including<BR>
>         primarily violet, green, yellow, orange, and red light)<BR>
>         is green.  Accessory pigments absorb light effectively<BR>
>         at other wavelengths, but green light is absorbed less<BR>
>         than most other visible wavelengths.  The net result is<BR>
>         that photosynthetic machinery is better at using some<BR>
>         wavelengths than others: this varies by species, but in<BR>
>         a water plant (/Anacharis/) efficiency is highest for about<BR>
>         430 nm (deep blue) and 680 nm (red-orange), with a low<BR>
>         around 550 nm (yellow-green), and it almost ceases at<BR>
>         about 725 nm (near infra-red).  Since the photosynthetic<BR>
>         machinery depends so much on the wavelength of available<BR>
>         light, it is fair to say that wavelength is important.<BR>
<BR>
What I meant was that it's more important that there be enough energy<BR>
at wavelengths the pigment can use, than what the overal frequency<BR>
composition is, and it's *especially* not that important where the<BR>
emission peak is.<BR>
<BR>
*Efficiency* at converting available light into sugar is more<BR>
important<BR>
than sensitivity to specific wavelengths.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 11:45:37 -0800<BR>
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)<BR>
Subject: Re: technology advances<BR>
<BR>
>From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU><BR>
>Subject: Re: technology advances<BR>
...<BR>
>NASA does things the way they do because they're primarily a R&D<BR>
>organization, something that modern MBA's have been trained to believe is<BR>
>somehow an uneccesary expense, and a definite hindrance to tomorrows PL<BR>
>statements. In a business environment where 'long-term planning' means<BR>
>scheduling a meeting next Monday, we're gonna be stuck on this dirtball<BR>
>forever.<BR>
<BR>
  Yes, but the North American (business) media tells us that North American<BR>
business is always right. Have you also been having disloyal thoughts about<BR>
the Computer, Comrade?<BR>
<BR>
  Of course, it may not be North American "free enterprise" that makes<BR>
the breakthroughs; if so, they'd better hope that the license fees on<BR>
the technology aren't too brutal :(<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 12:09:56<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Exploding suppressors...<BR>
<BR>
At 11:22 AM 12/15/1999 -0800, you wrote:<BR>
>Douglas E. Berry <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com> writes:<BR>
<BR>
>> Considering the one home-made suppressor that blew up three feet from me,<BR>
>> I'll believe it.<BR>
><BR>
>Actually, Doug, it *was* commercially manufactured.<BR>
<BR>
Ah.  I had been talking with some of the folks at that table and they were<BR>
mentioning some home-mades they had brought along and I assumed that the<BR>
Hollywood Flash came from one of those.<BR>
<BR>
It was interesting to see John blow past me at a dead run before anybody<BR>
else could even move.  He's *good*.  He also has a twin in Bay Area Fandom.<BR>
<BR>
ObTrav: Characters with minimal firearms training do something in a<BR>
similarly dumb vein.. like trying to load a .45 rifle with 9mm.  :P<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 19:56:11 -0000<BR>
From: "Mark Preston" <mark@mpreston.demon.co.uk><BR>
Subject: RE: Cutting the Carotid<BR>
<BR>
Artery - FROM the heart TO the organ.<BR>
Vein - FROM the organ TO the heart.<BR>
<BR>
The jugular takes blood from the brain to the heart.<BR>
<BR>
- -----Original Message-----<BR>
From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
[mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Ian<BR>
Ferguson<BR>
Sent: 15 December 1999 16:01<BR>
To: traveller@mpgn.com<BR>
Subject: RE: Cutting the Carotid<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Glenn Goffin writes:<BR>
>>It's long enough to cut the jugular. What move do you need?<BR>
>Just sharpness and skill.  Actually the carotid is a better<BR>
>target (it's an artery, so more blood will be lost more quickly<BR>
>leading to quicker unconsciousness and death, as opposed to the<BR>
>jugular, which is a vein).<BR>
<BR>
	A lot of people have never heard of the carotid artery, so<BR>
	probably think that the jugular vein brings blood to the<BR>
	brain.<BR>
<BR>
>Both are protected by slippery and thick sheaths (I've forgotten<BR>
>what they call the stuff that surrounds blood vessels -- myolin<BR>
>or something), so a very sharp blade is essential.  You also have<BR>
>to know where to cut.<BR>
<BR>
	I am not familiar with the sheaths that you describe, but<BR>
	it's not myolin (that surrounds nerves).  Perhaps Robert<BR>
	O'Connor could enlighten us.<BR>
<BR>
Peez<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 09:41:03 +1300<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: chicks with guns, and 3I porno<BR>
<BR>
On 15 Dec 99, at 12:57, Michel Vaillancourt wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> >40 seconds is also about the time needed to blow through a single<BR>
> >100-round belt.  Coincidence?  I think not! -- <BR>
> ><BR>
> >Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
> <BR>
>         "About damn time he ran out of ammo...  someone wanna squik that<BR>
>         PIA?"<BR>
<BR>
I always knew there was a reason to mount up pairs of MGs. They wait <BR>
for the pause in firing , stick thier heads up, just in time for gun <BR>
no.2<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
Rupert Boleyn <paradise.net.nz><BR>
Wellington, New Zealand<BR>
<BR>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 09:41:03 +1300<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: US Constitution [OT]<BR>
<BR>
On 15 Dec 99, at 5:16, Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Since then the court has *refused* to hear any appeals involving the<BR>
> second amendment. And it's part of the law that just because the SC<BR>
> doesn't hear an appeal does *not* indicate that they favor the<BR>
> arguments of *either* side. <BR>
<BR>
I would suggest that no matter what the law says refusing to hear an <BR>
appeal is de facto support for the status quo, and in 2nd amendment <BR>
cases this means the SC effectively supports gun control laws.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
Rupert Boleyn <paradise.net.nz><BR>
Wellington, New Zealand<BR>
<BR>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 15:12:51 -0500<BR>
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca><BR>
Subject: RE: Velocity/Vector<BR>
<BR>
Charles Collin writes:<BR>
>Just to throw my two cents in here I use a system where<BR>
>emergence from jump causes one's vector direction to be<BR>
>randomized.  This is a side-effect of the energy put into the<BR>
>jump.  The length of the vector stays the same relative to the<BR>
>point of jump entry, so it's generally in one's best interest<BR>
>to slow down before jumping.  This minimizes the variability of<BR>
>the time it will take to intercept the world one is headed to.<BR>
>The randomization of the vector also attenuates the "near-c"<BR>
>rock problem, whereby ships which retain their vectors in any<BR>
>predictable way could jump in on high-speed collision courses<BR>
>with enemy worlds.<BR>
<BR>
	This works for me.  I think of a jump "tunnel" that tends<BR>
	to be (loosely) anchored to any large mass.  If you have<BR>
	some v as you enter the tunnel at one end, the other end<BR>
	of the tunnel is moving as you exit.  The magnitude of v<BR>
	is conserved, but the tunnel could be whipping around in<BR>
	any direction.  It could also come out in just about any<BR>
	distance/direction from the target world.<BR>
<BR>
>This is my favorite solution as it does little violence to<BR>
>physics and helps nix near-c rocks. <BR>
<BR>
	Elegantly to, I might add.<BR>
<BR>
:)<BR>
Peez<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 12:54:17 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: back on topic?  was: (Way OT and possible Flamebait)<BR>
<BR>
>From: Kyle Schuant <kyle3054@yahoo.com><BR>
<BR>
>Excuse me, but similarity with small differences <BR>
>causes more violence than _great_ differences. <BR>
<BR>
Civil wars, insurrections, and rebellions, to relate<BR>
to another thread, are traditionally bloodier than<BR>
wars between different countries.  <BR>
<BR>
Ob Traveller:  The Civil War period appears to be an<BR>
exception to this rule, but it was actually just a<BR>
series of naval coups with little public (or<BR>
governmental) support or involvement.  On the other<BR>
hand, in my Traveller Universe at least, the Fifth<BR>
Frontier War is characterized by radical differences<BR>
in warfare styles.  <BR>
<BR>
The Imperium on the one hand and the Zhodani and Sword<BR>
Worlds on the other fight a relatively conventional<BR>
war by: attempting to avoid civilian casualties and<BR>
destruction of ecosystems and infrastructures;<BR>
treating prisoners with respect and care; and<BR>
maintaining communication with each other regarding<BR>
prisoners and especially ransom and exchange<BR>
negotiations for nobles.<BR>
<BR>
The Vargr forces are primarily in it for the loot, and<BR>
everyone recognizes this.  Zhodani advisors try to<BR>
keep the Vargr in line with the conventions being used<BR>
by the other belligerents, but with limited success. <BR>
The Vargr don't hesitate to destroy what they can't<BR>
take with them, and the Zhodani have to pay them to<BR>
leave intact and garrison things that the Zhodani want<BR>
(like starports).  <BR>
<BR>
The Vargr don't engage in genocide or mass murder of<BR>
civilians or prisoners as a matter of general<BR>
practice, but they're not squeamish about shooting<BR>
first and asking questions later, or eliminating<BR>
everyone -- civilian or military -- in the way of an<BR>
objective.  <BR>
<BR>
An Imperial common citizen would have a hard time<BR>
deciding whether it's worse to be a Zhodani or Vargr<BR>
prisoner.  While the Zhodani might engage in really<BR>
disgusting mental practices, the Vargr probably won't<BR>
provide any medical care and maybe not even food,<BR>
unless you convince them that you're ransomable.  <BR>
<BR>
The really nasty conflicts involve the Ine Givar, who<BR>
will stop at nothing to achieve independence from the<BR>
Imperium -- even if it means that Jewell, Regina,<BR>
Vilis, and Lanth subsectors become a Zhodani<BR>
protectorate.  The Ine Givar's primary demands are<BR>
total freedom to practice psionics and a restructuring<BR>
of the economy to ownership by the state.  <BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Thousands of Stores.  Millions of Products.  All in one place.<BR>
Yahoo! Shopping: http://shopping.yahoo.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 16:19:14 -0500 (EST)<BR>
From: Kenji Schwarz <schwarz@fas.harvard.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Wearable Lawyers (was Re: Deserts)<BR>
<BR>
On Wed, 15 Dec 1999, Joseph R. Dietrich wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> >Any Traveller game or campaign I ever try to run is going to prove to be<BR>
> >too ridiculous to survive.<BR>
> <BR>
> But it would probably be an incredibly fun way not to survive something. As<BR>
> a player, of course. :-)<BR>
<BR>
Well, actually, I meant that the campaign wouldn't survive, but thanks.<BR>
<BR>
I just realized I'd need to replace at least one OTU megacorp with A. T.<BR>
Love, of course.  <BR>
<BR>
Always thinking --<BR>
<BR>
Kenji<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 15:31:57 -0600<BR>
From: "Moody, Danny M." <DMoody@bridge.com><BR>
Subject: RE: US Constitution [OT]<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: Rupert Boleyn [mailto:rboleyn@paradise.net.nz]<BR>
> <BR>
> I would suggest that no matter what the law says refusing to hear an <BR>
> appeal is de facto support for the status quo, and in 2nd amendment <BR>
> cases this means the SC effectively supports gun control laws.<BR>
<BR>
Absolutely untrue!  The Supreme Court itself, many, many times have stated<BR>
that denying cert means nothing at all - except that they didn't want to<BR>
deal with the issue.<BR>
<BR>
 -- vargr1                                              UPP-8D9B85 --<BR>
The three principle virtues of a good programmer   | dmoody@bridge-dot-com<BR>
 are Laziness, Impatience, and Hubris.             | vargr1@jcn1-dot-com<BR>
             ** Omnia dicta fortiora, si dicta latina. **           <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 13:48:46 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Full auto Pilgramage Pics...and DITZIE?!?!<BR>
<BR>
>From: "Douglas E. Berry"<BR>
<gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
<BR>
>Not to put a damper on this, but you also have to<BR>
>make somecomparisons.<BR>
>                Finland           California<BR>
>Pop Density   40.6 sq/mi          190.8sq/mi<BR>
>Ethnic Mix    Finn 93% Swede 6%   White 69%, Black<BR>
>7%, Asian 10%,Latino 25%<BR>
<BR>
>So you have a much more homogenous population spread<BR>
>far more thinly.<BR>
<BR>
But you do have to remember that the only people that<BR>
the Finns traditionally dislike more than the Russians<BR>
are the Swedes (and even among the Finns the<BR>
Savolainen are said to think that they're superior to<BR>
everyone else, while the Karelians are considered sort<BR>
of like people who live in Appalachia).  Still, those<BR>
frosty northern temperaments seem to lead to a lot<BR>
more snide jokes than drive-by shootings.  (My<BR>
relatives couldn't tell me enough Swedish jokes the<BR>
last time I was there.)<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Thousands of Stores.  Millions of Products.  All in one place.<BR>
Yahoo! Shopping: http://shopping.yahoo.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 13:54:41 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: TELEKINESIS GAMES ON BARON'S YACHT! holovid at 2300<BR>
<BR>
>From: Kyle Schuant <kyle3054@yahoo.com><BR>
>Subject: Gossip and porno and journalism in the 3I<BR>
<BR>
>So, I repeat my ObTrav: what will tabloid journalism<BR>
>look like in the 3I? Will paparazzi chase the<BR>
>Emperor's family, photographing them wandering about<BR>
>naked on their space yachts, speculating if they're<BR>
>gay, etc? What will be too shocking to print or show <BR>
>on holovision?<BR>
<BR>
By a few hundred years after the psionics suppressions<BR>
(i.e., ca. 1100), psionics is likely to be a very<BR>
scandalous matter, and accusations might fly.  It will<BR>
be less important to security in regions farther from<BR>
the Zhodani, so more likely to be just scandal and<BR>
gossip, and not quite libel or of interest to law<BR>
enforcement.  <BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Thousands of Stores.  Millions of Products.  All in one place.<BR>
Yahoo! Shopping: http://shopping.yahoo.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 13:24:46 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Exploding suppressors...<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Douglas E. Berry <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com> writes:<BR>
>> <BR>
>> At 10:17 AM 12/15/1999 -0600, you wrote:<BR>
>> <BR>
>> >Also, remember, in the US a suppressor is regulated just like a<BR>
>> >fully-automatic firearm or destructive device ($200 tax, 6 month <BR>
> background<BR>
>> >check, local LEO permission, not valid in all states).  Yep, a metal pipe<BR>
>> >with washers in it - all by itself - is deemed by law a weapon as <BR>
> dangerous<BR>
>> >as a machine gun or a grenade.<BR>
>> <BR>
>> Considering the one home-made suppressor that blew up three feet from me,<BR>
>> I'll believe it.<BR>
><BR>
> Actually, Doug, it *was* commercially manufactured.  However, the bonehead<BR>
> dumped an entire magazine of .223 all at once when he toasted the thing.<BR>
> The fireball was almost inevitable.  They're just not designed to take<BR>
> that kind of thermal spike. :^/<BR>
<BR>
There's a reason why you don't mix suppressors and full auto in the<BR>
real world, regardless of what you see in the movies. :-)<BR>
<BR>
OBtrav: Let the players learn this the hard way. <BR>
<BR>
After all, the military doesn't use suppressors except in very special<BR>
situations and units. The average scout has little need for them unless<BR>
he's doing covert ops. And Mercants rarely get firearms skills anyway.<BR>
<BR>
So unless one of the group has "appropriate" history, let them buy or<BR>
buuild thosde suppressors, and then try using them in a "quiet"<BR>
operation. :-)<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 13:05:11 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: technology advances<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
>>Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 07:41:20 -0700<BR>
>>From: cos 90 <cos90@powersurfr.com><BR>
>>Subject: Re: technology advances<BR>
>><BR>
>>>> And Daedalus was automated in spite of a hundred-year<BR>
>>>> mission duration; NASA can't even build something autonamous<BR>
>>>> that can manage to land on Mars...<BR>
>>><BR>
>>>That's because Congress keeps cutting NASA's budget, just like they did 20<BR>
>>>years ago with the space shuttle. If NASA were given its just due, it<BR>
> would<BR>
>>>certainly be capable of properly designing spacecraft to do the job RIGHT.<BR>
>><BR>
>>Let's not give NASA too much credit here. NASA is a great example of now<BR>
>>NOT to run a space program -- it's so over-laden with bureaucracy that<BR>
>>anything it does is inefficient and costs way too much. The typical space<BR>
>>shuttle launch has a ground crew in the neighbourhood of 20,000 people.<BR>
>><BR>
>>If transatlantic plane service were run like the shuttle program, there<BR>
>>would be one flight per month, there would be delays of several days if<BR>
>>there was so much as one little thing wrong at startup, and a ticket would<BR>
>>cost a million dollars.<BR>
><BR>
> Space launch vehicles are much more likely to go up in a ball of<BR>
> vapour if something goes wrong than a 777. Most of the time if something<BR>
> goes wrong on an airplane you can continue the flight or land at the<BR>
> nearest airport whereas with a rocket something going wrong is<BR>
> extremely likely to result in catastrophic failure (ie fireball in the sky.)<BR>
<BR>
That's because NASA designs and runs the damn things like *racecars*.<BR>
Right at the ragged edge of performance. Which is way they have to<BR>
completely disassemble things after each flight. <BR>
<BR>
We need something designed like a *truck*, or at least like an<BR>
airplane. Parts and vehicle designed so that the normal flight regime<BR>
is only 50-70 percent of design rating. And designed so they merely<BR>
need regular maintenance.<BR>
<BR>
>>I say it's time for private enterprise to get into the game.<BR>
><BR>
> Anybody who believes that private companies are automatically<BR>
> efficient hasn't been reading their Dilbert cartoons. (yes they are just<BR>
> comics but they are only funny because they are so true.)<BR>
<BR>
True enough there. <BR>
<BR>
> I know of no law - In the US at least - that restricts any private<BR>
> individual (or corporation for that matter) from engaging in space<BR>
> launch.<BR>
<BR>
We signed a treaty that makes the US *government*, not the individual<BR>
or corporation doing it, *legally* responsible for *any* space<BR>
activities carried out by US citizens or companies. Which means that<BR>
going overseas won't help get you out from under, you'd have to give up<BR>
your *citizenship*.<BR>
<BR>
Currently the Commerce department is (mostly) in charge of drawing up<BR>
and enforcing the regulations (and they rely on NASA bureaucrats for<BR>
technical evaluations).<BR>
<BR>
I'm told that due to the influence of th government contractor types<BR>
and NASA the regulations aren't real friendly to "small start up"<BR>
companies. <BR>
<BR>
> The reasons "private enterprise" hasn't gotten into the space game<BR>
> on a free lance basis is that nobody can figure out how to do it<BR>
> less expensively than the "ineficient government bueraucracy."<BR>
<BR>
Well, I hear that part of the reason for that is that you get required<BR>
to produce tons of paperwork to satisfy government types that you<BR>
aren't violating their rules. <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 17:20:31 EST<BR>
From: GaryBartz@aol.com<BR>
Subject: bringing violence thread back on traveller point<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 12/15/99 1:55:13 PM Eastern Standard Time, <BR>
owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<< One might argue that population density or weather has something to do<BR>
 with differences in levels of violence, but comparing Toronto to Detroit<BR>
 puts the lie to this. Both cities have about the same climate (being just<BR>
 across a straight from one another) and both have roughly the same<BR>
 population.  Yet Detroit has roughly 10 times the murder rate. <BR>
  >><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Exactly why there is a traveller world that is fun to game in.<BR>
Detroit is a city that, at the same time that it's main employers moved out, <BR>
also became ruled by an ethnic group that had been picked on in the past and <BR>
decided to take the following actions [just after open warfare broke out, <BR>
requiring tanks and machine guns to restore some level of peace]:<BR>
1) Kick the other [usual majority] racial group out<BR>
2) Intentionally dis-empower the police force by hiring unqualifed and/or <BR>
criminal police<BR>
3) Rule the local court system with judges and jurys who would allow many of <BR>
their ethnic group to go free, or serve little time<BR>
4) Fail to repair battle damage [the 'broken windows' theory of the criminal <BR>
justice set holds that bad looking areas breed more bad looking things, and <BR>
bad actions]<BR>
5) Raise taxes on any person or business who still remained<BR>
<BR>
That plus the crack sales of the 80s led to the Detroit we know today. <BR>
<BR>
Option one: We can claim the difference is that Detroit has guns and <BR>
therefore is a place of badness [by the way, very few CCWs are approved <BR>
there, most that are approved are for retired police or the politically <BR>
connected]; whereas in Canada loud noise makers are less present, therefore <BR>
it is a good place. <BR>
<BR>
Option two is what makes traveller such a good game. You can set up two port <BR>
cities, and even reuse some street maps [we never do that, do we ;-]  same <BR>
size, same infrastructure, same basic government and offical titles, even <BR>
much the same laws, and still have them be totally different places. One <BR>
place for the highbrow adventure demanding cool and nice roleplaying, one for <BR>
the street battle among the burned out ruins of the buildings. And the cool <BR>
part is that your players know it happens in real life, so your world rings <BR>
true. Just select any or all of the Detroit saga for a back story, if the <BR>
players even think to inquire. That is travelling at its finest, and I think <BR>
is the basic spirt of the game. The real worlds stories and history are all <BR>
the SciFi plots you need. See Star Trek for details.<BR>
[remind me sometime to explain how I used the Ford/Nazi interaction, along <BR>
with a semi-german/jewish back story, properly recast to avoid direct <BR>
resemblance, to speed the PCs into the most intense gaming thread we had. <BR>
Yes, it did end up at a death camp, and the players did the best they could <BR>
to disrupt it, with never a doubt that such a world was possible]<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 00:27:47 +0200<BR>
From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Jussi_Kenkkil=E4?= <Jussi.Kenkkila@helsinki.fi><BR>
Subject: Vs: Full auto Pilgramage Pics...and DITZIE?!?!<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message ----- <BR>
From: Kyle Schuant <kyle3054@yahoo.com><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Wednesday, December 15, 1999 4:28 AM<BR>
Subject: Re: Full auto Pilgramage Pics...and DITZIE?!?!<BR>
> <BR>
> Finland, what a glorious nations, where the most<BR>
> repressive gun laws are noise pollution laws! Wow! And<BR>
> yet their murder rate is lower than California's? I<BR>
> wonder why?<BR>
<BR>
In Finland most murders are committed with a knife or an axe...<BR>
<BR>
- -J2K (a Finn)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 14:32:31 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com><BR>
Subject: Re: technology advances<BR>
<BR>
Leonard Erickson writes:<BR>
> > Space launch vehicles are much more likely to go up in a ball of<BR>
> > vapour if something goes wrong than a 777. Most of the time if something<BR>
> > goes wrong on an airplane you can continue the flight or land at the<BR>
> > nearest airport whereas with a rocket something going wrong is<BR>
> > extremely likely to result in catastrophic failure (ie fireball in the<BR>
> > sky.) <BR>
> <BR>
> That's because NASA designs and runs the damn things like *racecars*.<BR>
> Right at the ragged edge of performance. Which is way they have to<BR>
> completely disassemble things after each flight. <BR>
<BR>
Unfortunately, that's sort of a prerequisite for getting into orbit.  <BR>
> <BR>
> We need something designed like a *truck*, or at least like an<BR>
> airplane. Parts and vehicle designed so that the normal flight regime<BR>
> is only 50-70 percent of design rating. And designed so they merely<BR>
> need regular maintenance.<BR>
<BR>
The problem is, if you have an engine with a specific impulse of 460 seconds, and it takes 730 seconds of thrust to get into orbit plus an additional 120 seconds of thrust to keep from hitting the ground, 14% of your weight can be non-fuel mass.  If you reduce your specific impulse by 10%, only 11% of your weight can be non-fuel mass -- which means your parts need to be 30% stronger, weight for weight, which means that by running one system at _less_ than design rating, other systems need to run at _more_ than design rating.  Getting into space is _hard_.<BR>
<BR>
> I'm told that due to the influence of th government contractor types<BR>
> and NASA the regulations aren't real friendly to "small start up"<BR>
> companies. <BR>
<BR>
Maybe.  In practice a small startup is flatly incapable of getting into orbit.  The cheapest way of doing it is buying a missile booster from the USSR, and that's still quite expensive.<BR>
> <BR>
> > The reasons "private enterprise" hasn't gotten into the space game<BR>
> > on a free lance basis is that nobody can figure out how to do it<BR>
> > less expensively than the "ineficient government bueraucracy."<BR>
> <BR>
> Well, I hear that part of the reason for that is that you get required<BR>
> to produce tons of paperwork to satisfy government types that you<BR>
> aren't violating their rules. <BR>
<BR>
Well, truth is that there are a number of private groups which are doing work on commercial launchers; a number of groups think they _can_ make money at the private launch business, and most likely NASA would be happy to let them do so.<BR>
<BR>
None of this relates to mars exploration, of course.  There's no commercial reason to go there.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #1500<BR>
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